Building a Quantum Ecosystem from Scratch with Martin Laforest
Welcome to the new quantum era. I'm your host, Sebastian Hassinger. And today, I'm excited to be talking with Martin LaForest. Martin has one of the most interesting career arcs I've come across in the quantum industry. He did his PhD at the Institute for Quantum Computing at Waterloo, studying under Ray LaFlamme, one of the true pioneers in the field.
Sebastian Hassinger:Then he spent eight years writing scientific research at the IQC. So he knows a lot about how to translate this stuff into terms that the general public can understand. After that, he jumped into industry at a post quantum cryptography startup, where he worked alongside some ex BlackBerry executives. And now he's a partner at Quantaset, which is a quantum only VC fund based in Quebec. What I love about Martin's perspective is that he's been on every side of this ecosystem, the science, the communication, the startups, and now the investment.
Sebastian Hassinger:And he sits on the advisory committee to Canada's national quantum strategy, so he's also helping shape policy at the national level. Today, we're gonna dig into something I think is kind of unappreciated, which is how the province of Quebec in Canada has built one of the most impressive quantum ecosystems in the world. We're talking about a small university in Sherbrooke that made a bet on condensed matter physics back in the nineteen seventies. Combine that with a semiconductor fabrication ecosystem that was local, and through really intentional community building has created something truly remarkable. Quebec has invested $400,000,000 in quantum just in the past three years, and is really a world leader in many ways.
Sebastian Hassinger:We'll also get into Martin's philosophy on what it takes to build great companies in quantum right now and why he thinks this is still very much a science problem and an engineering problem, and how collaboration between regions and even countries is actually accelerating the whole field. So let's jump in. Hi, Martin. Thank you very much for joining me today. I was, you know, looking forward this conversation when we when we chatted before we talked about having you on.
Sebastian Hassinger:The first thing I'd love to hear from you, you know, you're you're a trained physicist with a PhD from Waterloo, and now you're partner in Quantaset, a quantum only VC fund based in Quebec. That journey, I'm just really fascinated. How how did you get from point a to point b there?
Martin Laforest:Oh, well, we we can spend the whole podcast talking about this. And, well, first of all, Sebastian, thank you very much for having me. You know, we just we just met not so long ago, but I I, you know, I I like your vibe a lot. So when I learned that you had a podcast, I'm like, I gotta get on, man. It's a thing you and I can have a great chat.
Martin Laforest:So, yeah, I'll try to keep it short. Honestly, it's just a a series of what could be classified as stupid decision, good timing, being a bit stupid. But so far, have to admit that it's it's working out a bit. So just just to go little bit through the the resume. Right?
Martin Laforest:So you mentioned that I got my PhD in quantum information, which is it was in the early days of quantum computing where we're talking about, like, the the February where the idea of VC investing in quantum or or just even having companies was not even a thing. And and how did I get there? Heavy coincidence and stupid decision again. I was finishing my undergrad in the at McGill and then wondering what I do with my life. So, you know, we're starting to look, and and I had some, know, pretty good GPAs.
Martin Laforest:So all my professor was saying, like, you should apply to the Ivy School in United States. That's the way to go, which I did. You know, got in into some of the big schools, you know, the Harvard, the MITs. And in the middle, a a certain Raymond Laflamme, which some might know as one of the pioneer of quantum computing, quantum information, was just moving back to Canada to start this big you know, this well, back then, was not a big, but, like, you know, there was a big vision to start the Institute for Quantum Computing, the Institute. He came to give a talk because he was a recruiting student.
Martin Laforest:And I just felt I I just thought, like, this subject is so cool. Like, I love quantum mechanics. I would like to use it, and quantum information is literally using quantum mechanics to do stuff. And then, you know, Raymond was a fellow Quebecois. So I decided to turn down the offers from Harvard, MIT, Cornell to go to, you know, sorry for the expression, but Ontario, a place where I've never heard of before, which I know nothing about.
Martin Laforest:My profs were so, you know, so disappointed. But turns out that, you know, being there doing my PhD when I got there, there was 15 of us. When I left after my PhD, it was, like, a 150. It was the best thing that ever happened to me because I got to do my own research, and then I got to be exposed to all of the field of quantum information and quantum computing and sensors. So I was a specialist in spin physics, but, you know, got to learn about optics, cold atoms, ion trap, and that sort of so I I I got to, get a fairly decent breadth of knowledge.
Sebastian Hassinger:You must have seen a lot of, really interesting talks from the pioneers who I mean, Waterloo was very quickly one of the the main stops sort of on the the circuit of of, you know, giving talks about the the subject.
Martin Laforest:Well, you know, I don't have exact numbers or anything, but I would not be surprised if about today's maybe 50% of anyone in the field has at some point been through Waterloo. I either as a student, as a postdoc, as a long term visitor. Like, yes. I got to meet a lot of people. And still to this day, twenty almost twenty years later, I still capitalize on that.
Martin Laforest:So, you know, I tried the whole postdoc thing. Turns out research was not was not for me. I was not, you know, being you know, I'm not the kind of guy who loves to solve the problem no matter what and keep going at it. I more more of a guy that like to keep going forward. And but I love teaching, and I love communicating.
Martin Laforest:Obviously, by now, you know that I I love to talk. So then another stupid thing that I've done, I was visiting back in Waterloo, and I just was walking around the walls of IQC. Raymond Laflamme's door was open. He was a director at that time, and I just barged in. I'm like, you know what?
Martin Laforest:This institute needs someone to bring quantum outside of the land, somebody who can talk, and and I wanna be that guy. A year later, I was moving back from Europe and starting this job as the the the first head of scientific outreach at the Institute for Quantum Computing. Did that for eight years. Got to create educational programs, do government relation. And towards the end, we're talking, like, 2016, '17, now they're starting to be a small industry in quantum.
Martin Laforest:And investors started looking into it, and companies started to look into embracing quantum technology. So I got to learn that language a little bit and and got to familiarize myself with sort of the world of industry and and and investment. And then so I decided to join a startup. Startup in post quantum cryptography, which is not my field at all. But it was a startup that was ran by, you know, old senior people from BlackBerry.
Martin Laforest:Right? So they they, no, they build a company worth billions of dollar, and then they crashed it after that. Right? So I figured if I am to learn the ropes of industry, might as well get the white hair and learn from them. Right?
Sebastian Hassinger:Absolutely. And, I mean, it some would say that you learn more about being an operator by failing than you do
Martin Laforest:by succeeding. Yeah. I I wouldn't say that the company I worked with failed, but we
Sebastian Hassinger:definitely had a huge shot,
Martin Laforest:and then we're I'm sorry.
Sebastian Hassinger:I mean, the perspective of BlackBerry. BlackBerry is such a spectacular rocket ride, and then, you know, a series of misfortunes and missteps. It Yeah. You know, you can't think of actually a more seasoned technology executive than somebody who went through that whole ride.
Martin Laforest:Yeah. Absolutely. And then those were, like, the old school guys that knew all the tricks of the trades. I got to learn a lot. But, you know, I I it it was a few years I that I had my eyes on Sherbrooke in Quebec.
Martin Laforest:Right? Yeah. You know? Quebec being my my own province.
Sebastian Hassinger:Right. But, I mean, at what point did University of Sherbrooke and the and the Quebec government's own investment in building an ecosystem? When when did that sort of catch your attention? Because that seems like the real catalyst to where you are now. Right?
Martin Laforest:Well, Sherbrooke caught my attention just from what was going on at the University of Sherbrooke. Right? I knew a few of the researchers there, especially the young one, Alexandre, David Poulet. Right? So we no.
Martin Laforest:You those guys, we run into each other, but the science that we're doing, you know, it was a smaller institute than IQC. IQC was like that big thing backed by a billionaire, tons of money. But Sherbrooke was, like, a fraction of of the funding, but the output was amazing. But also, like, their vision and their plan. And then the Quebec government back then started to, you know, brought around this idea of innovation zone, and we'll talk a bit more in a minute about this.
Martin Laforest:So, you know, befriended those guys, and it was kinda, you know, written in the sky that'll probably ended up there at some point. And then one day, the the phone rang, and then somebody said, hey. We're Quebec is starting a VC fund in Quantum only to sort of support this entire ecosystem that we're building, and then they're looking for a quantum expert that has a broad knowledge on things that can speak to anybody without the technicalities, which was kinda my specialty at that point. So my first you know, go back with the the the story of bad decision. Right?
Martin Laforest:I I remember having that phone call on Monday. So that was one of the guy from the University of Sherbrooke. So he connected me with the people behind the fund. So I had a chat with the other partner on Tuesday. On Thursday, I was chatting with three of the main investor.
Martin Laforest:I had the job offer on Friday, and I accepted the next Wednesday. Fantastic. All while asking myself what the hell is a VC and what does it do?
Sebastian Hassinger:Okay. That doesn't classify as a bad decision. Just maybe not fully informed decision.
Martin Laforest:Yeah. So it it thankfully, in the meantime, I kinda had reached out to a few people that with my background, I ended up in in the VC world. So I I reached out to, like, two people, and I asked them, what does it mean? And and that was, like, an early stage fund. And never never been a guy about money.
Martin Laforest:I my goal in life is not to make money, is to just do great project, help what I can. And then the they're gonna made me understand that being an early stage VC is is not about the goal is the goal is to make money, but the goal is not to squeeze dimes out of company. The goal is to create great companies, which then ultimately, if you do a good job, will end up creating money for the fun.
Sebastian Hassinger:The money is
Martin Laforest:a bad product. What appealed to me. Right. So the the opportunity to help build ten, fifteen, 20 companies from the ground up, it was really appealing to me because I'm you know, at the beginning, I said I don't like to to work on always on the same project and keeping pushing. Right?
Martin Laforest:So a little bit of diagnosed ADHD going on here. So now I get to work 15 projects. It's amazing. Right? Yeah.
Martin Laforest:So that's been A little bit confusing. And I haven't regretted.
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. That's fantastic. It's interesting. I mean, you know, it sounds like you have been bridging these different worlds all along the way. Right?
Sebastian Hassinger:I mean, you know, the communication role at Waterloo, but also you mentioned, you know, sort of interfacing with government and public sector. And now sort of the, like I would say, the world of the operator, the entrepreneur and the operator with the scientific research world. What do you think is sort of the the the hardest thing to sort of communicate? Like, what's the thing that people still don't really get about the emerging quantum information technology world?
Martin Laforest:Oh, this is an extremely complex question. Right? Yeah. I mean, it goes from the the very basic no. There's still a lot of people that that and and it's a bit on our shoulder, the the the quantum community.
Martin Laforest:There's still a lot of people that believe that this the quantum computer is this magic box that will solve everything that is the most powerful thing that will be better than everything all the time. Right? So so there's a lot of miscomprehension. It's you know, and and the story that I like to tell to people that are a bit our our age, the younger don't get the reference, but a lot of people think that it's the difference. Corning computer is like the Commodore 64 versus the Pentium.
Martin Laforest:Right? That's just a better computer. Right? So so that's one of the big thing that we need to make people understand. And some sometimes those people go all the way up to the heads of government, those that signs big, big checks.
Martin Laforest:So so I'd say it's a bit of our fault, the community. Like, it's it's our job to make sure that the communication and the and the narrative is truthful. Right? So that's kind of the the basic one. The other one, which, you know, drive me nuts is that quantum tech equal quantum computing.
Martin Laforest:Right? So in the and don't get me wrong. Right? I mean, quantum computing and quantum computers will probably be the one that will bring the most value, will be the most the biggest rupture in technology, but it's not the only thing that we can offer. Quantum tech no.
Martin Laforest:Quantum communications, cybersecurity, sensors, that sort of thing. They're they're still very important in the game. And maybe the other one is well, it's it's still a research project.
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right.
Sebastian Hassinger:Which some of these days. Yeah.
Martin Laforest:It's true. Right? And if you look at the biggest quantum computing companies that are valued in the billions of dollars, they are still, you know, arguably a bit of a research project. I know. Have amazing technology.
Martin Laforest:The engineering is phenomenal, but it's useless
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah.
Martin Laforest:For now. Right?
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah.
Martin Laforest:Yeah. But when it's gonna get into that quantum advantage, quantum utility? It's a trillion dollar business overnight almost.
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah.
Martin Laforest:Yeah. But it's not a research project. Like Right. You know, we are setting the course. And then, you know, some of the, you know, some of the road maps that you see out there are extremely aggressive, but they're not completely stupid.
Martin Laforest:Right? So we're pro like, we are I believe we are walking the line to quantum utility, not cryptography breaking quantum computer just yet. Right. But we're walking right on that line, and it's it's a matter of a year or two, maybe three, until we start offering some advantage. So
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. Though I keep telling people, what I'm confident about is that they're you know, like you said, those aggressive road maps, one or more of them will very shortly result in a machine that you can't simulate classically anymore. Right? If you get to the sufficient, you know, sort of Hilbert space and connectivity and and coherence time, you just can't simulate that classically by in any means. So Yeah.
Sebastian Hassinger:You know, if if there's something useful that machine does, then by definition, that's quantum of it.
Martin Laforest:That that yeah. That's right. So so, you know, a machine that cannot be simulated already have those. Right? I mean, Google was the first one to come around.
Martin Laforest:Xanadu has claimed that. There's a there's a couple of companies.
Sebastian Hassinger:True. It's for useless problems. Purpose. Yeah. Yeah.
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In a general
Martin Laforest:purpose sense. Yeah. So there's their Yeah. You know, quantum supremacy thing. So that's more of a an academic kind of achievement, which is a great achievement on its own.
Martin Laforest:Sure. But, you know, quantum advantage can take many kind of forms.
Sebastian Hassinger:Of course.
Martin Laforest:Can be time saving, can be, you know, energy saving, or you can even apply that to quantum sensors. Quantum advantage give you
Sebastian Hassinger:Sure.
Martin Laforest:More, you know, more selectivity, more precision. Like, it's Right. Again, the sensors might not be as groundbreaking and trillion dollar business, but they they're still I mean and they exist. They're commercialized. Right?
Martin Laforest:So, you know, I find that there's so much attention sometimes to the quantum computer, and there should be attention Yeah. That we forget the rest.
Sebastian Hassinger:Right.
Martin Laforest:Right. Which is great for me. I get to invest in those and then capitalize, so it's fine. I get more choice. Right?
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. In a sense, it's the the analogy is in the first sort of quantum revolution, we did get the microprocessor, which depends on micro sort of quantum mechanics for for semiconducting to to work, right, and doping and all that in the in the integrated circuit. But you will also get the laser and GPS and MRI, and these are all essentially technologies that rely on understanding of quantum mechanics. And the same thing is happening this time. The the focus is on a computing technology, but as you say, there's all of these secondary and tertiary and ancillary benefits from the the advances in engineering and and understanding that is coming from from quantum information science.
Sebastian Hassinger:You you mentioned you know, I think one of the things I find the most fascinating is is sort of you said, you know, aggressive road maps, which is is good. It's needed. But there's this there's this tension that goes on between you know, as you said, some things are still research. There's still fundamental science obstacles or or achievements that are required to to unlock scale or transduction or, you know, any number of different topics that that are required in those road maps. And there's like this you know, engineering is something that you can manage from an investment perspective, from a risk perspective, from a a business perspective.
Sebastian Hassinger:And scientific research is sort of inherently unmanageable because it's the error bars are who knows? Right? Like Yeah. So how do you how as an investor, how do you manage and how do you communicate that sort of tension between those two paradigms?
Martin Laforest:Well
Sebastian Hassinger:Another easy question for you, Mate.
Martin Laforest:No. No. Because it's it's something we we think a lot about because, you know, every now and again, and I would say more often than not now, you you see, either CEOs of companies or, you know, outsiders, but that, you know, are thought leaders about technology. He's like, I you know, this quantum thing, it's it's no longer a science problem. It's only an engineering problem.
Martin Laforest:Come on. You know, you we could have said the same thing with the ANIAC when it was vacuum tube and say, it's just an engineering problem. It's like, yeah. Keep on treating it as an engineering problem, and then you'll keep on trying to shrink down the vacuum tube and then trying to pack you know, to get bigger and bigger rooms to get more vacuum tube. Right?
Martin Laforest:The transistor moment arrived not out of the dead field, but it arrived from science. So it is true to say that to get to a working quantum computer, it's an engineering problem. Yeah. You can keep on hacking at probably what we have now, and then you'll be able to get a quantum computer that can give you an advantage. But, like, can we really claim that today, the different modalities, you know, superconducting chips, spin, trap at ions, atoms, that they are the absolute one that will allow us to not only do fault tolerant quantum computing, but to do miniature to missionarize things, to save electricity.
Martin Laforest:It's like, come on, man. Like, we you know, we need to dream a bit bigger than this. And look. We've had personal computers since 1984. You go to universities, and there are still fundamental researchers in computer science.
Martin Laforest:AI came from fundamental sci and now look at at the impact it had. Right? So I think that's that's another message, you know, to your previous question that we need to keep on reinforcing. Because we need to invest on the commercialization, but we cannot stop or even back out of investing in fundamental research because that's where the breakthrough will come. That's where we'll get our transistor moment or CHED GPT moment.
Martin Laforest:You know, that's we we need discovery and materials to allow us to do things not at 10 millikelvin and being or in vacuum chamber being able to go out in the right? So we need all of this. So it is still a science problem. It is more and more of an engineering problem, but it's not they're not exclusive at all. And, you know, whenever we do you know, I have the chance to sit on the the advisory committee to the Canadian the Canadian National Strategy and Quantum.
Martin Laforest:And the thing we always, always push is, like, we need more money. Don't take it from science.
Sebastian Hassinger:Right.
Martin Laforest:New money. Like, we need new money that like, don't touch this because then we're just shooting ourself in the Yeah.
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Martin Laforest:So it's very much of a science problem, but engineering is more and more important Yeah. For sure.
Sebastian Hassinger:Well, that that goes back to your your experience sort of bridging those worlds. Right? I mean, that's a perfect example of educating the public sector leadership and and, you know, sources of funding on it's not it's not a, you know, take from this side to give to this side. We actually need the fundamental scientific research in addition to boot strapping the early stages of a of a a, you know, an industrial ecosystem. Yeah.
Sebastian Hassinger:That I find that really fascinating. And it's it's really interesting to me how I mean, your position as an investor, as a VC fund in a province, Quebec, which is sort of in in many ways, in my opinion, is leading in the country in terms of bringing the right ingredients together and coordinating those ingredients for building an ecosystem in a country that is also very serious about building the how do you think about sort of the the national level strategy versus the regional development ecosystem?
Martin Laforest:Well, you know It's an easy
Sebastian Hassinger:question for a Quebec co op person to answer.
Martin Laforest:Yes. Exactly. Right? You're you're bringing the the crux of Canadian politics right here. So so maybe for the for the non Canadian listener, I'll give a a a quick a quick political thing, how Canada works.
Martin Laforest:Right? So Canada's large country, but small population, 40,000,000 people. Historically, strong in fundamental research, you know, in in many disciplines. We've historically, again, has been struggling to capitalize on the fruit of those, you know, the fruit of those research. So, you know, we were we're commercially challenged, let's put it that way.
Martin Laforest:But usually, investment in innovation and research happen at the federal level. So the the government of Canada takes care of this. But Canada also have 10 different provinces, three territories. But the 10 provinces, usually, they have different responsibility than the federal, you know, like schooling system, health care, that sort of thing. But they can also invest in in innovation and research.
Martin Laforest:Not all province do or province do at certain level, but I would say Quebec, Alberta, BC, and Ontario are quite active. So it means that in in the case of Quebec, you mentioned that Quebec been quite aggressive in investing in Quantum for the past five, six years. Just in the past three years, they invested $400,000,000, which is significant. Right? Quebec is a province of 9,000,000 people with a long history of excellence in in quantum, and and I'll come back to that in a second.
Martin Laforest:So now you sort of have a Quebec led strategy led by the government of Quebec with a federal strategy led by a federal government, these two are not necessarily bodies. Okay? Sometimes they can work well together, sometimes not. And you mentioned Quebec, you know, being the French province, being the people fighting for right to keep our language and survive, sometimes it it crash a little bit. But I would say in quantum, I think in quantum, at least, we're aligned in the in aligned in in the sense of Canada and Quebec has been punching quite above its weight since the beginning in quantum research, and we all want Canada and Quebec to be bigger than than its size, you know, to be, you know, to be a leading nation and not just a following nation.
Martin Laforest:So at least we're aligned on this. But then, you know, there's always the the funding, who's paying what, and, you know, you you can get funding from both. But so it's a line at the 10,000 foot view and then sometime on the floor. But I'll say and here's I speak because I only I I only came back to Quebec four years ago after spending eighteen years in Ontario, the next province. I'll say there's a there's a a more willingness to make things happen between the different level of governments than in other issues, other societal issues.
Martin Laforest:So, you know but when I moved back to Quebec, you know, I kinda I had a a little pet project in my head. It's like, you know, I'm I'm a adopted Ontarian, but a native Quebec. I'm gonna come back to I'm gonna fix this problem between Canada. Like, I know people from both sides. Yeah.
Martin Laforest:You know, I was a little cocky. Ma'am, I still don't realize how big of an issue it can be. So, yeah, it's not fixed yet, but we're working on it. And I think there's there's some good heart on both sides.
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. Well, and and I'm I think that if, you know, if if if you succeed sufficiently in leading in, as you said, the the emergence of this, the market that's going to emerge from the these sets of technologies, the the rewards are big enough for the whole country. Yeah. You can actually forge a path to being a pioneer, which you have been doing successfully and not a follower, then, I mean, that the rewards are will more than justify and and will drive a lot of very happy collaboration, I think, across the country.
Martin Laforest:Yeah. And and and I think well, you know, you mentioned earlier on that, you know, you you think Quebec has the maybe the most momentum in in Canada. And, you know what, I'll I'll I'll think I'll agree with this, although it's it's a bit of a statement because I am in Quebec. Right? I'm biased, but but I didn't know did eighteen years in Ontario.
Martin Laforest:So and this is not removing anything else from what's going on in in Waterloo and Toronto or even Calgary. Like, this amazing thing is happening. But but, yeah, there's a lot of momentum in Quebec, but I think it's it's also built in the way we we're trying to do things. So I mentioned that, you know, University of Sherbrooke had a long history in quantum, and and let me give you the a quick history. So University of Sherbrooke is one of the small university in Montreal in in Quebec, in the province.
Martin Laforest:It's not really small anymore, but back in the days, in the seventies, it was one of the smallest. And they had, like, a bit of a fledgling physics department. They were running out of funding. They were having a hard time keeping their lives on. So they at some point, they they came to a crossroad.
Martin Laforest:They they had to do something. It's either we shut the door or we do something that, you know, out of the ordinary so we can keep going. And they make a bet back then that the entire physics government the other physics government the other physics department would focus entirely on condensed matter physics, which today is known as quantum materials. So go around the the world. I don't know many physics department that focus on
Sebastian Hassinger:one would that have been?
Martin Laforest:In in it's in the seventies. Wow. Don't know the ex exact date, but, you know, it's a while back. So what that means is that throughout the year, the University of Sherbrooke, albeit quite small, not in the, you know, top 100 university in the world, but quite mighty, strong in engineering, strong in science, very close to to to and working with industry. Well, they were all working in condensed matter physics.
Martin Laforest:So it means that they stacked on infrastructure, on, you know, dilution fridges, helium circulator. So it built a critical mass of infrastructure and know how, and not just, like, PhD level physics know how, like, technicians know how and machine shop know how and, you know, prototyping know how. And in parallel to this, you know, up the street in Bromont, about 45 kilometers away, a little hidden gem of Quebec that virtually nobody knows. There's a an industrial park of semiconductor fabrication. So IBM has a fabrication plant there.
Martin Laforest:Teledyne Dassault has one. And they also have a something called the c two m I, where it's it's a foundry but for small batch and at the same time, a packaging research place. So it's kind of a a great segue between prototyping and large scale manufacturing. So all of this existed before the idea of saying, like, let's build a massive ecosystem of quantum.
Sebastian Hassinger:And, Matteo, that would would that industrial park have been a result of essentially, they were trying to recruit out of the the fact that Sherbrooke was was cranking out these condensed matter physicists and and engineers who knew how to run the the the physical plant required for that. Is that is that sort of an offshoot of that?
Martin Laforest:I I I don't think it was a no shoot because of this. I think it was, like right now, I'll take everything with a grain of salt. I'm still a newbie to the region, but I I think it was it was a a play more in microelectronics. IBM was here. So that's C2MI that I thought.
Martin Laforest:Like, it's a partnership between the University of Sherbrooke, IBM, and C2MI, but it's open to anyone. Like, it's a user facility open to, well, anyone who, you know, passed the test, of course.
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. Yeah.
Martin Laforest:It was not a result of the quantum thing happening. But now because back then for quantum, you just needed a prototyping facility, which which Sherbrooke has. It's called a three IT. Usual academics stacked to the gills for doing microelectronics, nanoelectronics. But now c two m I, now that quantum is an industry, we need to start making you know, we need to start manufacturing.
Martin Laforest:We need to start it's not just one chip at the time. Now it plays a role. And then they're just about to open a super con like, a fabrication line specifically for superconducting chips for and that's the kind of the point I was heading at. We didn't have to build everything from scratch. Most of the things was already here, and then we capitalized on on years and years and years of fundamental research and microelectronics.
Martin Laforest:So when you look at other ecosystems saying like, hey. We're gonna build this. We're gonna build that. We're gonna do this to help the companies. Well, you come to Sherbrooke, and everything is running.
Martin Laforest:Right? We have the the fabrication facility. We have the production facility. We even build a a mutualized lab where we have six dilution fridge, electronic stack that is owned by no one. And what I mean by this is that it's 100% from for rental.
Martin Laforest:You have a company. You don't have access to hardware. You can rent time on this. You arrive. It's yours.
Martin Laforest:We did the same thing with a, you know, a quantum communication test band where it's built, it's running, there's some QKD on it, there's some entertainment exchange on it, there's some DQC. You want it to but it's owned by no one. So companies that wants to have access to test band, nowadays, it's like 40 test ban in the world, but they're always owned by someone.
Sebastian Hassinger:So you
Martin Laforest:can never really have access.
Sebastian Hassinger:That must be why. So I I read that that some European hardware vendors have actually been attracted to Quebec for part of their, you know, r and d and and prototyping. So it must be to take advantage of that infrastructure. So there's even a for a foreign investment view of this as well.
Martin Laforest:Yeah. I mean, we build it for I mean, we build it with that in need that in mind. Right? Some of the local company needed this, but, really, we build it to offer a service to the world. And then at the same time, well, if we can help attract companies, you know, open like, we don't want like, we're not in the business of convincing them to move their headquarter.
Martin Laforest:But if they can come here, open an office because we have that infrastructure. Right? So this is kind of a to come back to Sherbrooke has the momentum is is because we're we're not starting from scratch. We're capitalizing on what we already had. And, also, the part that I love the most that really in entered that attracted me here is that sense of community and collaboration.
Martin Laforest:Right? Sherbrooke is a small town doing big things. So I don't know if you're a small town if you're from a small town, but I am. I'm from a, you know, a 10,000 people town. We always have a bit of a chip on our shoulder.
Martin Laforest:Right? Always I'm like you know, because we're always looked down from people from the big cities. Right? When I went to McGill, like, I was the, like no kidding. Some student thought I was, like, the the the the the geography hire.
Martin Laforest:Right? They they needed to get someone from the boonies so they could get guy. So, of course, when I was scoring a scholarship, I was like, the small tiny guy just showed you. So I would I I don't say that Sherbrooke, is like this. Right?
Martin Laforest:But there's this sentiment of we need to work together to make it work. So it's a big it's a big ecosystem. There's fabrication facilities. There's lab. There's an investment fund.
Martin Laforest:There's an incubator. There's a there's an ecosystem kind of overall organize we're constantly talking to each other. We try to not step on each other's foot. And I think when I look at other ecosystem that more have, like, a collection of individual, I think that's a very good ingredient, and it makes it it makes you feel part of something bigger than you. That's fantastic.
Martin Laforest:Is is is the it's it's a phenomenal feeling because we're all going at the same place.
Sebastian Hassinger:That's great. It's funny because don't
Martin Laforest:always agree, though. Mean, we're
Sebastian Hassinger:you know? It's fine.
Martin Laforest:It's not perfect.
Sebastian Hassinger:That's part of the scientific method too. Disagree with one another. Yeah. It's terrific because what you just articulated, it it's it puts the a very sharp focus on why I have been telling people in terms of national and regional quantum initiatives to build an ecosystem, I think that I I see Quebec and The Netherlands as the two places that are the furthest ahead and have built the most impressive kind of collaborative, you know, infrastructure for for for the whole sort of Yeah. Virtuous circle to actually work.
Sebastian Hassinger:That whole community to produce more than the sum of the parts. Right? That it's it's like leveraging up
Martin Laforest:to the the small town. Netherlands is a great inspiration. I, you know, I thought that I did a postdoc. It happened to be in The Netherlands, but before this whole thing started. But, you know, I still feel I still know people.
Martin Laforest:So I
Sebastian Hassinger:Which university?
Martin Laforest:In in Delft.
Sebastian Hassinger:Like In Delft. Okay. Yeah.
Martin Laforest:The the mother the mothership.
Sebastian Hassinger:The mothership.
Martin Laforest:The mothership. So, you know, I I've been back there. It's it's quite amazing what they've done and very ambitious. And what I like is that the Dutch and the Canadians are very similar in in the sense that, you know, we try to not take too much risk. We're not risk taking.
Martin Laforest:But what they've done in in in Quantum is very undutch. And I've been known in the past for saying a few things that in quantum, need to be, know, unapologetically un Canadian. Right? We need to break the Canadian way of doing things, and that's what they've done in Netherlands. And, again, not everything is perfect, but we definitely I think they they they got a lot of things right, and then we're looking that way.
Martin Laforest:And Chicago did the same. Chicago is quite impressive what's going on there. Right?
Sebastian Hassinger:There's lots
Martin Laforest:of money, very good leadership, And, you know, in also. Glenn, what I like with them is that they took they did long term commitment. Right? Strategies on over ten years. Here in Canada, it's, like, three years at the time.
Martin Laforest:It's kinda hard to it's kinda hard to build what you don't know with so we're working on that. But, you know and to to that point, we're all building ecosystem, and we're all trying to have sort of kind of the one one stop shop. But we the last thing we should do is treat each ecosystem as its own little island. Collaboration is more important than ever, especially in the geopolitical climate that we have today. We all have something to offer.
Martin Laforest:We all have something to learn from each other. So, you know, strong ecosystem open to other ecosystem. That that's a given. The mobility has to happen. You know?
Martin Laforest:We need to compete, but we need to be friends.
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. Well, Matte, that's fantastic. It's been terrific talking with you. You know? I think the the themes that you're you're talking about in Quebec are incredibly important to anybody trying to build a quantum ecosystem around the world.
Sebastian Hassinger:So I think Quebec continues to be an example, and Quanta said is a a a significant critical part of that ecosystem development. So I really appreciate
Martin Laforest:that. Far as saying we're an example. Would say, like, we're trying something different, and, hopefully, it works. We'll do our best, and then we want to learn from people. And if one people wants to learn from us, we'll do, but we don't claim to have the magic recipe.
Martin Laforest:But we try our recipe.
Sebastian Hassinger:Humility feels like a really important example to the world.
Martin Laforest:Look. There's a lot of things to build before we can claim that we figured it out.
Sebastian Hassinger:Exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you so much.
Martin Laforest:No. Thank you, Sebastian. It was great.
Sebastian Hassinger:Thank you for listening to another episode of the podcast, a production of the New Quantum Era hosted by me, Sebastian Hassinger, with theme music by OCH. You can find past episodes on www.newquantumera.com or on blue sky at newquantumera.com. Thanks again to the support from APS for this episode, and thanks to Emily Edwards for a really enjoyable conversation. If you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and tell your quantum curious friends to give it a listen.
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