Quantum consciousness with Joachim Kepler
Welcome to the new quantum era. I'm your host, Sebastian Hassinger, and I am so excited about this episode. Because as soon as I saw this research paper, I knew I had to have our next guest on the podcast. Quantum physics is possibly the most abstruse subject in existence, certainly in science, where debates over the interpretation of why quantum physics even works have raged on since the days of Heisenberg and Schrodinger. Given its impenetrable, mysterious nature, it's no wonder that quantum can become a kind of blank canvas on which we can project some of our crazier ideas.
Sebastian Hassinger:When legitimate scientists debate over whether nearly infinite parallel universes exist, spawned continuously every time any coherent quantum state collapses into a single classical state in one universe and another classical state in a brand new universe seemingly complete and inaccessible to us, is it any wonder that any number of pseudoscience, new age, sci fi, and sometimes just downright crazy ideas get the word quantum slapped on to dress them up with a kind of fake legitimacy? This type of undisciplined use of quantum concepts took off in the 1970s, unsurprisingly, with the idea that consciousness causes collapse being tied to the transcendental meditation practiced at Esselen, and has led to commercial products, books with titles like Quantum Healing and films like What the Bleep Do We Know? Produced by the way by the Ramtha School of Enlightenment founded by one JZ Knight, a channeler who said that her teachings were based on a discourse with a 35,000 year old disembodied entity named Ramtha. This stuff, which physicist Marie Gellman called quantum flap doodle, can be seen as mildly amusing a cynical ploy to separate people from their money or an impediment to the progress of expanding our understanding through real disciplined science.
Sebastian Hassinger:The dependability of the market demand for the quantum flapdoodle is, however, a product of the insatiable human desire to understand our universe and ourselves. Core to the human experience is our consciousness, our very experience of being, and a common subject of quantum flat doodle. However, scientists have had an intuition that there may be some actual relationship between quantum physics and human consciousness nearly from the beginning of the field, with the idea that consciousness causing collapse tracing back to the nineteen thirties. My guest today has been focusing on the quantum nature of consciousness in a very serious, scientifically rigorous way. His recent paper, Macroscopic Quantum Effects in the New Insights into the Fundamental Principle Underlying Conscious Processes, published in Frontiers of Human Neuroscience, lays down a firm scientific framework for his theory.
Sebastian Hassinger:He's the founder of the Dyewiss Research Institute in Germany. His name is Joachim Kepler, and he's a theoretical physicist with a PhD in quantum field theory. His work focuses on the scientific exploration of consciousness, pursuing an interdisciplinary approach that combines physics, neuroscience, and philosophy of mind. I find this work absolutely fascinating, and I hope you will too. Joaquin, thank you so much for joining me.
Sebastian Hassinger:I have been really interested in the the work that I've seen of yours online. I was looking forward to this conversation. So can you start with a brief introduction of yourself?
Joachim Keppler:Sure. First of all, thank you very much for the invitation. It's a pleasure to talk to you. Well, I mean, brought down, I think, to a common denominator, I would say that my academic journey has been driven mainly by my curiosity to look behind the scenes of creation. And so my background is actually in theoretical physics, with the aim of understanding the fundamental principles of the universe.
Joachim Keppler:And these principles are reflected in quantum field theories. And, so quantum field theories form the foundation of modern physics and sets the key interest, from my side. And I actually earned my doctoral degree for studies in this field, more precisely for studies related to the substructure of the nucleon, which falls into the realm of quantum chromodynamics, which is the realm of the strong interaction. But on the other hand, I have always been interested in the understanding of consciousness. And in particular, I've been wondering how consciousness fits into our physical worldview and how a physical system such as the human brain can give rise to our sensations and emotions.
Joachim Keppler:So this is what we know as our phenomenal inner world. And so in other words, starting from the worldview of modern physics, the big question for me is how can we explain consciousness? And with this question in mind, I founded in 2012, the Divis Research Institute, which is supported actually by foundations and philanthropists, and is specifically dedicated to the scientific study of consciousness, pursuing an interdisciplinary approach at the intersection of theoretical physics and cognitive neuroscience. And the focus of my research is on deciphering, the fundamental mechanism, the fundamental principle behind conscious processes, and establishing, at the end of the day, a solid conceptual basis for a theory of consciousness. So this is, in a few words, my field of study and my main interest, my main area of interest.
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. It's it's an interest I share. I'm not as deeply specialized or or in the field, obviously, but, you know, I think the, you know, consciousness itself is has been known as sort of the hard problem. Right? It's the the mystery of where our own experience emerges from, and whether there's a way to model it from from the physical system that is our brain Yeah.
Sebastian Hassinger:To this this set of qualia and phenomena. Did you do you so you you have your doctorate in in theoretical physics. Was that interest sort of in parallel of for consciousness with that along you know, all along you had that, or did was there something that sort of made you dig deeper into into this, you know, this this subfield of trying to link physics with with consciousness?
Joachim Keppler:No. My my interest in this field started in 2010, around 2010. And in 02/2012, as I mentioned before, I I started to look deeper into this matter and really to to I founded the institute, and I I try try to really, yeah, get more specific on this topic and and try to lay the foundations for a theory of consciousness. Of course, I'm not the only person in on this planet who who is involved in this topic, but along with many people around, which I meet in conferences, and so I I try to push this topic forward, in a very rigorous and scientifically founded way.
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. That's what appealed to me when I came across your research, that there is this from the very start a disciplined approach to this that is adhering to scientific principles and trying to come up with a framework that's let's say, avoid some of the the traps of pseudoscience and and, you know, the the more emotional or or intuitive approach, I would say, to try and pursue knowledge. So that's really great. And so at the core, I think, you know, you you describe your approach as having an assumption that consciousness is not produced by the brain, but but is an interaction of the brain with some sort of set of quantum level phenomena. Is that right?
Joachim Keppler:Yeah. That's right. I mean, this quantum hypothesis actually and my maybe I can elaborate on that now. I mean, this hypothesis does not come out of the blue. I mean, maybe it's good to start with a broader scope of this research.
Joachim Keppler:And the broader scope of my research is actually to unveil the principle behind conscious processes. So the question is, what mechanism is active while we are conscious and is inactive during periods of unconsciousness? So in a broader context, one may ask, whether there is a universal principle that distinguishes conscious processes and conscious systems from nonconscious systems? And if so, what does this principle look look like? And now regarding these questions, we already know a lot of neurophysiological details about the formation of conscious processes.
Joachim Keppler:And the knowledge we have tells us that at the macroscopic level of the brain, there are highly synchronized long range activity patterns that are induced by phase transitions and display very specific dynamical characteristics, namely collective behavior and the key characteristics of self organized criticality. And now these findings at the end of the day lead us directly into the realm of quantum field theory because it's quantum field theory that provides us with the appropriate methodological resources for explaining phase transitions and understanding collective behavior in many body systems. So as a physicist, following the clues means that you immediately realize that quantum electrodynamics is the appropriate framework for the study of conscious processes. And for this reason, at the end of the day, my research now focuses on quantum electrodynamics. This is a fundamental theory of the electromagnetic electromagnetic interaction, and I'm doing this with the aim of gaining deeper insights into the functioning of the brain and specifically into, the principles behind conscious processes.
Joachim Keppler:So that's the main journey, the main the main, reason why I'm doing this, because there are many clues, there are many, details already available, scientific evidence, and following the clues leads us to the realm of quantum field theory.
Sebastian Hassinger:Right. Right. And I suppose also there's just the intrinsic knowledge that the you know, their neuronal activity in the brain is chemicals driven by ionic interactions, chemical interactions, and chemistry is quantum. So whether Yeah. You know, whether quantum is is present in the operations of the brain is not a question.
Sebastian Hassinger:It's you're looking for the the explanation of the conscious state versus the unconscious state of of the brain. What's the what's the the switch that's turning on and off, if you will?
Joachim Keppler:That's it's you know? Exactly. And and it is and we come, I think, now to this very specific mechanism. It has a lot to do with macroscopic quantum phenomena. So what we are what you're, referring to is is basically, yeah, the the underlying substrates, the chemistry in the brain.
Joachim Keppler:So that's intrinsically quantum in a way. Yeah? But, now, interestingly, there are on top of that level, macroscopic quantum effects that do the job, so to speak, and that are now very important for the understanding of conscious processes. And, so, well, I mean, in order to to explain what I'm doing, I think it's quite interesting to or it's important to to know that, in quantum field theory, the vacuum is not a void, but it's it's filled with activity. Yeah?
Joachim Keppler:So empty space is not a void, but rather a ubiquitous ocean of activity that has well defined physical properties and can be described mathematically. So that's the basic, vantage point for my, research. Right.
Sebastian Hassinger:So imagine how delighted the, whoever came up with the term ether would be to hear that we believe that now.
Joachim Keppler:Yeah. But now it's it's a more scientifically advanced understanding of this ether, and we are now talking about this all pervasive ocean of activity, which is termed the zero point field. And since we understand this activity and since we can describe it mathematically, we are able to study the interaction of the brain with this ocean very scientifically in a very rigorous way. And this is what I've been doing during the last few years, very systematically. And the outcome of this work is extremely revealing.
Joachim Keppler:Yeah? So, namely, it demonstrates that the dynamical characteristics of conscious states, as I mentioned before, these highly synchronized activity patterns that display the characteristics of self organized criticality. These characteristics can be very clearly understood on the basis of the coupling of the brain to this omnipresent field, to the zero point field. So there is a resonant interaction that can be mathematically described, and when you follow the the path, you see immediately that this interaction leads to these dynamical characteristics. So the zero point field actually turns out to be the key driver behind the formation of those activity patterns that are associated with conscious states.
Joachim Keppler:And this supports, in a way, the hypothesis that the zero point field plays a central part in the formation of conscious states. And this may be the key principles that lies behind the formation of conscious states, namely the brain zero point field coupling. Well, this is a very clear outcome of my research and, a consequence of this study of the dynamical interaction between this omnipresent field and the brain.
Sebastian Hassinger:That's incredible. And the, you know, the what you're describing, macroscopic quantum phenomena or or behaviors, Is that in any way I mean, it it immediately reminded me of of research I've heard about in the field of quantum gravity where there is both an experimental and a theoretic theoretical effort to try to bridge the the theory of gravity, the behavior of gravity with at the at the quantum level. What is that do do you see a parallel there in some way?
Joachim Keppler:Maybe in the long term, but not not now. And that's actually a path that I'm not following at the moment. So I'm very busy in really understanding the features of the brain, and this is my main emphasis at at at the moment.
Sebastian Hassinger:So There there feels like there's a a philosophical kinship at least in in that that same sort of attempt to to bridge the the subatomic with with the microscopic.
Joachim Keppler:It
Sebastian Hassinger:do you I mean, you're a theoretical physicist by training, but it sounds like you're talking about, you know, the patterns in the brain that that indicate consciousness. So there's there's an experimental aspect to your work as well, I assume.
Joachim Keppler:Not in my work. I mean, I I interpret the empirical data and the available body of empirical evidence. So I myself do not measure anything. I'm just trying to make sense of the empirical data and convert, so to speak, the data into a viable model, you know, and try to understand the principles that explains the data.
Sebastian Hassinger:Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. And I suppose if you get to a stage where you wanted to test the predictive model, you could then Then help help inform the design of an experiment.
Joachim Keppler:Absolutely. Though the outcome of my work now interestingly leads to new experimental paradigms. Since I'm now the one who at least theoretically claims to have unveiled prince this underlying principle, this will now lead to new experimental paradigms, to new proposals to really, yeah, scientifically verify this principle. Yeah? And so this, again, is now this is closing the loop to the experimental side.
Joachim Keppler:But I myself will not be the one who Yeah. Performs the experiments.
Sebastian Hassinger:On the electrodes. Yeah. Yeah. You could be a subject to an experiment, though.
Joachim Keppler:That's right.
Sebastian Hassinger:So this is incredibly fascinating. I I understand sort of the the proposition, the hypothesis that there's the the the consciousness emerges out of the the interaction of the brain with a zero point field. What do you do you have sort of a game plan for testing aspects of that through specific, you know, interpretation of specific sets of of data at the or behaviors within the brain?
Joachim Keppler:Yeah. I mean, there are two main strategies that would be now relevant on on the experimental side. I mean, first of all, there there are two options. I mean, first of all, the, the calculations I performed have a clear they they lead into this direction. They they demonstrate that this indirection is viable.
Joachim Keppler:They they demonstrate the feasibility of this macro of these microscopic quantum effects in the brain. Now one important next step would be to really show on the basis of new experiments that this interaction actually takes place. So one option to do that would be to demonstrate macroscopic quantum coherence in the molecules that speak with the zero point field, namely the new the neurotransmitter molecules. Most dominantly, cluedamate, which is the most the pre the the most dominant and the the most abundant neurotransmitter in the human brain. So the neurotransmitters are the the the molecular links to the zero point field, and it's a coupling molecule, so to speak, that are involved in this coupling game.
Joachim Keppler:And one avenue, one, option to show this is to demonstrate, the population an inversion of the population of the molecules in in the vibrational levels. So, the quantum superposition, this macroscopic quantum state, these molecules are populating, yeah, reveals itself by, a large proportion of molecules being in an excited state. And this can actually be measured. There are efficient measure methods that can be used to obtain robust indicators of macroscopic quantum coherence in biological systems. And now, going along this path would be one option to really demonstrate this coupling of the molecules to the zero point field.
Joachim Keppler:And the next option would be more indirect, namely, the measurement of a phenomenon that accompanies the emergence of macroscopic quantum states. And this concomitant phenomenon is, the emission of photon pulses. This is a so called biophoton emission, which arises as a result of the energy reduction of the collective state of the molecules compared to the classical state. And this, phenomenon can be detected using established experimental methods for bion biophoton measurements. Yeah?
Joachim Keppler:And I should maybe say that there are already now positive results showing already now that the glutamate pool in the brain is the source of biophoton emissions. So there is already now a strong indication that this coupling really is relevant. And these are maybe from, from my point of view, that's the two options that that are now relevant for really establishing more experimental evidence for this zero point feed coupling to the brain.
Sebastian Hassinger:Right. Is I mean, biophoton emission, is there any skepticism about that being quantum in nature? Is there any any classical explanation for that? It seems like, you know, an electron emitting a photon, it has to be a quantum behavior. And, you know, it wouldn't it wouldn't seem controversial.
Sebastian Hassinger:I mean, I understand you're saying Yeah. It's now experimentally verified, but was it ever a sort of controversial idea?
Joachim Keppler:No. It's not so controversial, but, these emissions are characterized the emissions are typically characterized by a certain, yeah, spectral composition. And, this needs to be verified. So a macroscopic quantum system that loses energy in in this process of of establishing a quantum superposition, yeah, has a certain characteristic in really emitting these photons, and you need to, show this characteristic. So just measuring photons is not enough.
Joachim Keppler:Measuring a certain characteristic of the photon pulses will then tell you that the photons originate from a quantum process.
Sebastian Hassinger:It has that fingerprint.
Joachim Keppler:Maybe there's a certain fingerprint that needs to be, so to speak, be detected. And this unique signature tells us then, hopefully, that the the photons originate from, the formation of a quantum superposition, which then would, be an indicator for this zero point field coupling of the glutamate pool.
Sebastian Hassinger:Right. Fascinating. So there's there's my mind is sort of whirling. It's it's really I mean, it's amazing to me that we're we're so far past the sort of the objection that the the brain is too hot and too wet to for supporting quantum phenomena. And we're, you know, we know that that there are quantum operations going on, and and it you're just to the point of, you know, trying to find that link.
Sebastian Hassinger:The the link, you know, you're you're implying it's through superposition or coherent states that that interact with the the the glutamates interact with a zero point field. What does that I mean, you you also have a philosophy of mind sort of as part of your overall interdisciplinary mix of skills. What does that sort of feel like from a philosophy of mind perspective about the nature of consciousness that is probabilistic and and and, you know, based on these quantum states in some way. We don't know the degree to which that's translated, but it sort of implies that that there you know, some remnant of superposition is in our conscious state in some way.
Joachim Keppler:Yeah. I mean, first of all, all this, what I've been talking about, tells us that the zero point field itself may be the key to the understanding of consciousness. So, obviously, this coupling of a system to this omnipresent field is a key to the understanding of consciousness. Without the coupling, this superposition falls apart, and all these concomitant effects, namely also self organized criticality, will fall apart. And this is what we observe under, circumstances of unconsciousness, you know, so when all this falls apart.
Joachim Keppler:And so this leads us into the direction that actually the zero point field holds the key to the understanding of consciousness. Any system that is capable of coupling to the field, has the potential to form conscious states, while all those systems that do not couple to the field are not conscious. No? And, well, then metaphysically or philosophically, this may lead us into the direction to really understand this field not only as an energy field, but as I call it a dual aspect field with a psychophysical nature. Namely, it tells us, that's my personal point of view, that this field is not only a physical field, it's more than that.
Joachim Keppler:It's obviously also the basis, the substrate of consciousness in the universe. And every system that is capable of coupling to this substrate of consciousness is able to form conscious states. Right. That's my personal take.
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. And I assume I mean, it seems if that theory is valid, then then there would be some sort of threshold of complexity of the system required to actually have consciousness emerge. It has to have self reflectivity in some way because otherwise, there is no self awareness. Right? Which is Definitely.
Joachim Keppler:There is a certain level of complexity below which there is no coupling. And above that level, cup there is a macroscopic quantum state that this system can enter into while it couples to the zero point field. So this dynamical it's like a dynamical orchestrator of the system activity. Yeah? And this at the same time, it's the source, the the ubiquitous source, or the substrate of consciousness, which we tap into in a way.
Joachim Keppler:You know? So that's my physic philosophical take on that.
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. Well, I mean, it it's that's what I appreciate about this conversation is that, you know, there there needs to be that sort of set of of intuitive positions taken in order to formulate a hypothesis, in order to create a scientific framework to test that hypothesis. Right? There needs to be a full loop from one to the other, think, which is that's what makes it incredibly interesting to me. It also you know, my my my typical topic on this podcast is quantum computing.
Sebastian Hassinger:And it also raises the question if in the future, with sufficient scale and fault tolerance, if we're going to be able to simulate consciousness with a quantum computer. Like, how complex does the system need to be in order to simulate that min mini body interaction and and have some simulation of consciousness. And would it be a simulation, or would it just be conscious?
Joachim Keppler:Yeah. I mean I mean yeah. As as soon as we really understand this this coupling mechanism, we can reproduce it in a way, yeah, and build systems that also while modulating certain molecular concentrations. So at the end of the day, the the brain modulates neurotransmitter concentrations, and this modulation switches a coupling to the field on and off. And, now by by really deeply understanding this mechanism, we can reproduce it in in maybe an artificial system, and and and make this system coupled with the field as well, and and let that system have macroscopic quantum states that are associated with conscious moments.
Joachim Keppler:That's not impossible. But we are, I think, in in the infancy, in the early stage of the field and are trying to really understand what's going on when the brain does its coupling. Yeah.
Sebastian Hassinger:And is there any connection in your mind potentially between what you're describing consciousness arising out of and and the interactions that the bacteria, for example, use to in in terms of modulating their own density population or coordination of actions. Those are chemical signals from one creature to another, essentially.
Joachim Keppler:That's not unlikely. I mean, yes, it's actually one of my future projects, hopefully. Yeah. So, first of all, I try to really get this topic now deeper, yeah, try to understand the mechanism in even greater detail, though that's the first steps now that have been taken, but there is still plenty of work to do. But one future, project may be really to, expand this understanding to any type of biological system.
Joachim Keppler:Yeah? And, I think it's there are there are good reasons to believe that even in in in lower level, biological organisms, there is a kind of coupling to the field which orchestrates the mechanism. Yeah? And and I think at the end of the day, maybe any biological system can be understood, by its coupling to the field and by this orchestration of the organism by the coupling. And I think that's a very interesting perspective.
Sebastian Hassinger:Very. It it I mean, it's it implies that there's sort of an evolutionary path for consciousness and intelligence from from more older and more simpler life forms. Absolutely.
Joachim Keppler:And it would That's really fascinating. Would lead to a completely new understanding of biologic biological laws.
Sebastian Hassinger:Quantum biology. I think What's the actually, quantum biology. Of life.
Joachim Keppler:I think that's the future.
Sebastian Hassinger:Yeah. Yeah. I I'm familiar. Is there at this stage, is there any, you know, sort of finding that would cause you to question this this relationship with zero point field with consciousness? Is there any sort of, you know, negative outcome you could imagine that would would undermine the the argument?
Joachim Keppler:Yeah. I mean, well, I've been a couple of minutes ago talking about these crucial experiments that still need to be done. And so, of course, I'm I'm I'm absolutely realistic. Yeah. This is it's now a theoretical proposal, which is, I think, very sound, but it needs to be verified and substantiated on the basis of experimental data.
Joachim Keppler:And, of course, any falsification of the proposed mechanism would, call the theory into question. And, let's see. I'm I'm still very optimistic that all this, makes sense, and this is, the mechanism of bio biological organisms and specifically of our brain when we are in conscious states.
Sebastian Hassinger:That's incredible, Hakim. This has been a really, really interesting conversation, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing your work in the future. Thanks again.
Joachim Keppler:Thanks a lot for for your invitation again. It was a pleasure for me.
Sebastian Hassinger:Thank you for listening to another episode of the podcast, a production of the New Quantum Era hosted by me, Sebastian Hassinger, with theme music by o c h. You can find past episodes on www.newquantumera.com or on bluesky@ newquantumera.com. If you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe and tell your quantum curious friends to give it a listen.
Creators and Guests
